Wall-to-wall Popery
One of the nice things for me about being an atheist is that you don't belong to a club. (In the same sense that I dare say one of the nice things for other people about being religious is that you do feel that sense of belonging.) So if some other atheist says or does something that I don't agree with, I don't feel any sense of loyalty because of our shared (or rather unshared) beliefs, no sense of kinship with people with whom I have very little in common, apart from that we don't do the whole churchy praying stuff.
In the midst of all this wall-to-wall Popery at the moment, I get the sense that a lot of atheists are being portrayed as haters. Well, more than the sense - and look, it's our friends at the Mail doing it (though there was a fairly awful bit of kite-flying flamebait in the Telegraph the other day that I can't find right at the moment). You can roll it around in your head why one minority group, Catholics, might be pandered to by certain sections of the press in a way that, say, another minority group like Muslims are not, and it might be inviting to draw some conclusions from that. But maybe there's too much drawing of conclusions being done at the moment.
Anyway, I think that's slightly unfair, and wrong, for atheists to be portrayed as haters. I'm pretty sure there is a lot of hate out there - don't get me wrong - from atheists and others, but it's wrong to say that those atheists who don't hate are haters, just as it is equally wrong to smear all Catholics, or Baptists, or Muslims or whatever with the same characteristics.
But I don't hate the Pope, or what he stands for, or the idea of Christianity, or anything like that. I may have called him "an elderly virgin" and "odious" and a "ridiculous old cunt" in the past on this blog, but that wasn't meant in a hateful way - I was trying to be insulting rather than hateful, I hope you can understand. Even as a person with no religious beliefs, I can see why a religious leader should be welcomed by this country as there are many millions of followers here - even more so in a place where discrimination has been built in to the constitution against people of that faith. It's a good way to try and reconcile things. I may not choose to practise Christianity, but I can see a lot of good things in it - I went to Sunday School and all of that back in the day, and I remember some of the positive stories, as well as some of the downright weird and scary ones. There's a force for good in a lot of faith groups, bringing people in the community together and trying to achieve positive things.
Of course, you could point to any number of areas in which the Pope's edicts and orders have failed victims of child abuse, for example, or are discriminatory in themselves against any number of other minorities. That's a difficult thing for liberals to tiptoe around - the idea that in respecting some minorities and faith groups, you have to try and respect their right to be disrespectful to other groups. It doesn't sit easily. But still - I don't have any hate, only hope that perhaps something good will come from this papal visit. Well, you have to try and have what people might call a 'Christian' attitude towards these things, I suppose, even if you don't do the believing bit.
All that said, the wall-to-wall Papa is getting me down already. I watched television this morning and looked at a camera shot of an empty street in Edinburgh before the plane had even touched down. I watched interviews with people who had met the previous Pope back in 1982, and I couldn't help thinking "But it was a completely different man, how is this even relevant?" and I find it tedious that a state visit is making national headlines when surely there are other things going on in the world. I was even faintly disappointed that generic daytime property-buying programmes with overly-chirpy presenters who look like they should have been in Bucks Fizz - I'm talking about Homes Under The Hammer here, in case you weren't sure - had been removed from the schedules in order to accommodate all this super-reverent dirge.
But that's all I have. I don't seem to have any hate. I might not like this particular Pope or be a big fan of his pronouncements or views or anything like that - and that's putting it mildly - but I think I'm such a bleeding heart that I try to be tolerant towards even people like him. Otherwise, who is the one who ends up looking disrespectful and intolerant - the medieval-mentality waste-paper-bin wearer in the carriage clock case on wheels, or the people who attack him?
I don't think there is a lot of Pope-hate anyway. Mockery and derision, yes, but mockery and derision is fine. You may recall the amount of 'hilarious' mocking that South Africa's Jacob Zuma had from certain sections of the dead-tree press during his state visit back in March, because of his polygamous lifestyle. I'm pretty sure those same newspapers will be tut-tutting at anything seen as unpleasant towards this chap Ratzinger, and won't see anything wrong with that. But that's the way it is.
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September 16th, 2010 - 13:27
I completely agree with you about Homes Under the Hammer. They DO look like they should have been in Bucks Fizz. That may be why it’s my fave property show. Apart from Location, Location obviously.
I couldn’t understand why the Fail kept referring to “Atheist Hate” groups, when they clearly meant “Catholic hate” groups.
Even though it’s not that either.
As Lord Stephen of Fry has pointed out, since he’s supposedly ‘leading’ one of these ‘hate’ groups (so many inverted commas), the main issue is with it being granted ‘state visit’ status, and thus the taxpayer is paying for it.
September 16th, 2010 - 13:33
What I actually ‘hate’, if I hate anything about this, is the fact that this is a state visit. The last visit of the Pope wasn’t, so I don’t understand why we’re footing the bill for the visit of a head of a church which isn’t the state’s church (don’t think we should have one, but anyway), and who, to put it mildly, is a ‘controversial’ figure.
It’s particularly galling when he chooses to imply in his opening speech that atheism was the main driving force behind Nazism, which simply isn’t true, and ignores the suspect role of the Catholic Church in the whole business. Atheists have paid for his little jolly as well, and it’s not even for our benefit.
September 16th, 2010 - 13:36
The thing that really annoys me, really really gets my goat – and I’m not having a go at you here Anton – is when people casually describe atheism as a ‘belief’ or associate it with beliefs. It is precisely not a belief; it’s a default position in the absence of evidence to the contrary. It’s when people persuade other people that atheism is somehow a belief – just one more item of faith among a whole raft of other items of faith – that we get stuck with the notion that everyone MUST believe in something, anything at all, even if it’s the fucking spaghetti monster or Darth Fucking Vader or Harry Cunting Fucking Potter. Atheism has nothing to do with belief. That’s the whole point. Fucking hell, it annoys me.
September 16th, 2010 - 14:44
A very good point. Belief is an Anglo-Saxon word, the root of which means ‘to wish’, so when people say they believe in something, they really mean that they ‘fervently wish there exists/does not exist…’ (Got that one from Alan Watts)
More annoying is the deplorably bad grammar concerning the P.T.P. movement.
September 16th, 2010 - 15:35
Yes! When did people stop protesting AGAINST things? What’s happening with the world?? First fairy stories, then Nazi Popes, now lazy grammar by people who should know better. THIS IS APPALLING!
September 16th, 2010 - 23:36
And I also don’t get it when people who are supposedly against organised religions group themselves together into an organisation that sets out an agenda and an orthodoxy (eg British Humanist Association). Isn’t it all a bit oxymoronic – like having an “Anarchist Society”.
September 20th, 2010 - 08:36
I’ve never really understood this argument. Unless you can give us a robust distinction between “position” and “belief” as you’re using the terms, isn’t this just semantics?
September 16th, 2010 - 14:29
I know it sounds a bit Littlejohn, but surely we should send Gary Glitter on a return trip to Vatican City?
September 16th, 2010 - 14:41
My theory about the current Pope: he was chosen to make the next Pope look as good as possible by comparison. I mean look at it:
1) He’s undoubtedly the most naturally evil looking Pope of our lifetime. It’s like they had a look-a-like competition to find the cardinal who most looked like the Emperor out of Star Wars and decided based on that.
2) He was a member of the Nazi Youth.
3) He covered up thousands of cases of child rape.
4) He says all of the things that really, really piss off atheists and those in favour of education in all senses of the word (Nazism caused by athiests, condoms make the problem worse)
Let’s face it, the next Pope is going to have to work pretty hard to look as bad or worse than the current pope.
Chris
September 16th, 2010 - 19:34
While I feel a bit of a twat rushing to the pope’s defence, Number 2 on that list isn’t really fair. He was a young German boy during the second world war, which pretty much means he had precious little choice of not joining the Hitler Youth, it was mandatory after all. Bang to rights on the rest though.
September 17th, 2010 - 12:30
No, no, that’s entirely fair. I only included it because for the next pope “not being a member of the Nazi youth” will actually be a selling point that you normally wouldn’t have. Even the racist aide will have it “okay he did imply a horrific distaste for a multicultural society but hey, at least he wasn’t a member of the Nazi Youth!”
Chris
September 16th, 2010 - 14:44
I’m not a hater by nature, but I think it would be safe to say that I hate child rapists. By extension, it’s probably safe to say that I hate, or at least feel genuine contempt for, someone who is an accessory to child rape after the fact. So it’s not the Pope I hate, so much as the kind of man he’s proven himself to be by his actions.
September 16th, 2010 - 15:29
“I may have called him “an elderly virgin” and “odious” and a “ridiculous old cunt” in the past on this blog, but that wasn’t meant in a hateful way – I was trying to be insulting rather than hateful, I hope you can understand.”
I can understand why this website is called the enemy of reason now.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
YOU FOOLS! GOD HELP YOU ALL!
September 16th, 2010 - 17:33
It’s all right, I’ll just ask for forgiveness on my deathbed. Easy.
September 16th, 2010 - 16:48
A Christian writes….
Believe it or not the visit of The Pope is not exactly making life easy for us Christians, particularly those of us of a liberal/left persuasion (we do exist! Honest!). Many of us cringe with embarasment at many of his comments, and those of his aids. It seems that barely a week goes by without him coming out with some nonsense about gays or women or what ever else is his latest bee in his bonnet.
And yes the failure to act and protect the victims of abuse for decades, it may have been centuries, is repellant and the Catholic Church needs to be held to account for its actions, or more to the point its lack of them.
But here’s the rub.
The most high profile critics of the Pope, or indeed of many other high profile figures of other religions and denominations, seem to make this a secularism/atheism v religion issue as opposed to a tolerance v intollerance or a justice v injustice issue. Of course it doesn’t help that the Pope tries to associate atheism with Nazis. Neither does it help that more moderate religious voices such as Rowan Williams seem so hesitant to criticise the Catholic Church and its stance.
If the leading critics of the Pope such as The British Humanist Association or Richard Dawkins were to concentrate their fire on issues that unite them with moderates in both Christianity and other faiths, issues such as the abuse scandal, contraception, gay rights and women’s rights they would find that the likes of me would find it much easier to stand beside them. As it is the likes of me feel caught in the cross fire. We feel dismissed by both conservative Christians and liberal atheists and some what cut adrift and that is not a nice place to be.
I am a Christian, although not a Catholic, and I can’t wait for this whole bloody thing to be over.
September 16th, 2010 - 19:07
I’m an atheist and a taxpayer, but I actually don’t mind that we’re paying for the pope’s visit, whether it counts as a state visit or not.
I mean, if we can spend millions putting on things like carnivals and sports events, also minority interests, why can’t we spend a few quid on a papal visit? The guy does have about four million fans in the UK after all.
He is still a cunt though.
September 16th, 2010 - 19:13
Since starting my new job in a Catholic school a little over two weeks ago I have probably listened to, and indeed spoken more praise for the pope that during the rest of my 28 years put together. Don’t beleive a word of it mind you, but when in Rome and all that.
Had quite an interesting mass in school the other day with the Father talking about what a wonderful man the pope is, and how there are people who hate him and want to hurt him. The thing that bothers me, and I’m sure I’m not alone in this, is the implication that if you’re not Catholic, you must therefore hate the pope.
Interesting and enjoyable post Anton, one which resonates quite a bit with me as I prepare the hymns for tomorrow’s Big Assembley, celebrating the papal visit…
September 17th, 2010 - 10:37
Your hypocrisy is grim. Your spelling is rubbish too. I really hope you’re not a teacher.
September 19th, 2010 - 19:07
I went through all that bullshit when I was at Catholic Primary School.
Pope this, God that, Mass every Tuesday morning.
The brazen indoctrination in your school makes me shudder. I suffered it.
I know you can’t but someone ought to scream: “leave those kids alone!”
September 17th, 2010 - 12:09
I’m an atheist and I am not sorry to say I do hate the pope. I don’t think it is disrespectful or intolerant to hate a man that has helped cover-up child abuse and condemed millions to die of AIDS due to his stance on condoms.
Even if I could overlook those major issues his qualities as a decent human being should be questioned when he can stand there and lecture atheists on Nazism when he himslf was a Nazi Youth and Hitler was a Catholic.
Hate is a strong emotion and one only really reserved for those whos actions truly go against my moral code. The pope ticks all the buttons and does this as the figurehead of a religious organisation supposed to promote peace, love and compassion.
Yeah I hate the fucker. I hate him a lot.
September 17th, 2010 - 18:43
I’m sick of this version of Popey.
Where are Bluto and Olive?