A fan writes…
A reader calling him or herself 'Brit' sent me this comment on the 'England shirt ban' post* and I thought it deserved to be looked at in a bit more detail:
To be honest i agreed with all the groups on facebook, until i found out the rumor wasn’t true, there are a lot of people on here who are quick to judge people just because they want to fly their countries flag and support their team in the world cup, to be honest you should all climb out of your own arses and reallise that not everyone has the same views as you.
Is being proud of you country and heritage racist?
If you went to Pakistan and wore an England shirt you would probably be murdered, and yet foreigners come over here and get a house given to them and claim benefits, why should the tax payer shell out money for these people to come to out country and sponge off the rest of us? And most of them dont even speak english! so while you sit at your computer without a care in the world you should think about all of the British men who cant get work and who struggle to find a place to live because foreigners are getting all the houses.
Brit's views do intrigue me. They disappoint me rather than appal me. I'm not so much angry as weary when I read this kind of thing. Because I think there are some fundamental misunderstandings going on, and it's a shame.
I always do realise that people don't have the same views as me, for one thing. That's the wonderful thing about multiculturalism: we're all so similar, and yet so different. Some of us wear silly hats; some of us have silly names; we all have got to live together, like Diff'rent Strokes - "the world don't move to the beat of just one drum", ah how sage that advice was, and yet, how relevant still. So my position on England shirts and the silliness of ban rumours isn't me thinking that everyone thinks the same as me at all; it's recognising that a lot of people think very differently. If that means I'm up my own arse (or indeed someone else's) then so be it, I suppose; but I don't think it's blinkered vision at all, is what I'm trying to say.
And I don't really think there's anything wrong with flying a country's flag. Another classic misunderstanding. Oh if only we could just sit down and have a cosy chat, Brit, you'd see we weren't so very different, you and I. Like you, I can't wait for the World Cup - like you, I'll be wearing my England shirt in eager anticipation (I've got the 2006 vintage, but I had the old Admiral Kit for Espana 82 when I was a much smaller child with more hair, arranged in a bowlcut - remember that strip? Beautiful, with stripes of red and blue. Controversial in a way, as there's no blue in the England flag, but still rather lovely, as I recall.)
I'll be nibbling my fingernails and hoping against hope that this time - more than any other time - this time, we're going to find a way, find a way to get away, this time, getting it all together, we're going to get it right. I'm hopeful England can even make the final - I've booked the Sunday off work, just in case - and I would love it if they did. Patriotism is in many ways a bizarre and silly thing, but it still comes surging up even in a woolly liberal-left bleeding-heart-and-proud-of-it like me. You can't choose which country you follow, whereas people do choose football teams that aren't in their back yards - I'm stuck with England, whether I like it or not, though of course I do like it.
So it's not about the pride. No-one's pride makes me annoyed. I've watched England play at Wembley; I've followed their fortunes around the world. I want them - us, if you like - to win, whatever happens. That it will delight knuckledragging fools is no matter to me, because it will be amazing, if England were to win a tournament, as they probably are long overdue to do. It would be wonderful, and I long for the day it happens. There's nothing wrong with these feelings. You can step back and say they're irrational and a bit odd; but they're there, so that's me. As a fan, I can say there's nothing wrong with showing pride in your country, or hoping your team wins a football match. Of course not! Brit asks "Is being proud of your country and your heritage racist?" to which I reply, of course not. No, it isn't racist. That's the strawman. No-one is calling anyone racist for wanting to support their team. But it is the case that some of the people who are proud of their country and their heritage are also racist. That's the thing.
And it's there, I'm afraid, that Brit and I really do part company. He says that if you went to Pakistan in an England shirt you'd probably be murdered. Oh, Brit, I'm sure it's not like that at all. But here you can see the fear that's part of these kind of feelings - fear that other countries are places where English people would be killed just for being English. Not at all. My limited experience of world travel tells me that English people are seen as being boorish idiots who can't handle their alcohol and behave like children, but people deserving of being murdered? No. I don't think many of us get murdered for being English, not even in - gasp - Muslim countries.
Brit goes on, comparing the murder of English people abroad which would probably happen to the warm welcome we give immigrants - apparently giving them houses and benefits straight away. You can try and bring up the points-based immigration system, or the detention centres for asylum seekers, or the chronic lack of social housing, or the fact that immigrants don't go to the front of the housing queue (although of course any family with children will get priority, whether they've been around for years or not - if that's the beef, then that's something separate, but that's not what people are arguing) - that doesn't matter. People believe the stories they get told - down the pub, or in the papers. People who are afraid they'd be murdered for wearing an England shirt in Pakistan - it's always linked with fear... fear of the unknown, or fear of what you think you know.
All political parties - including Labour, as I wrote the other day - are determined to make immigrants the new scapegoats. When the huge Coalition cuts are announced this week, and thousands of public sector workers find themselves on the dole, the pressure will only increase, as unemployment inevitably rises. Immigrants will be blamed. People like Brit might see it as evidence that the taxpayer is shelling out for foreigners to come over and sponge off us and 'get all the houses', while loads of people who were born here can't get jobs. Who is brave enough to argue why immigration is important, why it works, why it's a good thing? Not any of our dogwhistling politicians, I'd imagine. And these kind of views will just carry on, and get bigger and nastier.
The irritating thing I see about a lot of prejudice towards immigrants is that it doesn't seem to be racist at all. It seems to be based on a series of misunderstandings and miscommunications, and a series of myths that people have chosen to believe are true. Foreigners get all the council houses and come over here to be given benefits and sponge off the state; but if you went over there, you'd get murdered. No wonder people are angry, and annoyed, and fearful, like my new friend Brit, and it's not necessarily racist. But it is wrong. Wrong, but it isn't being challenged by politicians, who have got a handy scapegoat for (in Labour's case) the election defeat and (in the Coalition's case) the unemployment they're about to boost with their swingeing cuts. If anything, these myths are going to increase as the years of austerity unfold. Who will challenge them?
* That post has been viewed more than 6,000 times so far. Whether it's reinforced people's prejudices about there being a ban, or has convinced people there isn't a ban, I don't know. But it does go to show the power of Facebook, as most visitors have come from groups there.
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Hello. I'm a Bristol-based writer and soon-to-be-redundant journalist. You can read more about me and the Enemies site here, or follow me on Twitter. Email me if you like - antonvowl at live dot co dot uk
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May 24th, 2010 - 09:04
I’m part of the sopping-wet-liberal-club, but also part of the England Sporting Teams Getting Drunk Arguing About The Best Formation (4-4-2) And Best Batting Line-up Club. I’m so fucking nervous about the upcoming championship. Just like Brit and Anton.
I’m also chuffed to bits that England recently won the 20/20 World Cup (I had to get that in…). I wore my England cricket top, I’m an immigrant, a lot during the tournament (in North Wales) and I’m still alive. Not a Muslim country? Ah yes – you got me. However, I also wore the top playing for my local cricket side, a side that includes five Muslims (all of whom work, one is a doctor, one a nurse and another the manager of our local mobile shop who did me a great deal on my new contract) and non of whom attempted to murder me. Although with the long hops some of them bowled, I did feel under-fire at cover point so… Anyway three of them had England tops also, in North Wales, as Muslims, and we discussed the brilliance of KP and the ingenuity of Eoin Morgan. The point is – don’t be scared. Nothing to be scared about. Enjoy the upcoming tournament (although that all depends on the fitness of a certain striker and whether Capello cracks-up and plays 3 at the back) and enjoy the diversity of all England fans. I’ll even have a beer with a Southerner (as a Yorkshireman) but I can’t stretch to the wrong-side of the Pennines – I’m sorry. We all have our faults.
May 24th, 2010 - 09:32
Hmm. Brit’s post is interesting reaction to some of the debate that’s been raging on the internet over this issue. I’ve read a few blog posts about the England shirt ‘ban’, and especially the comments, because once you start to dig down into it this story pokes a stick into the beehive of many people’s fears over immigration – Brit’s post being an excellent example.
The blog posts I’ve read are usually pretty balanced, but unfortunately many of the comments debunking the myth are dripping with patronising contempt. The writers aren’t simply trying to put the facts across; they’re trying to make themselves sound superior.
I think one of the things that really alienates people, if you’re trying to convince them of your point of view, is to come across like a patronising know-it-all who is grandly coming down off your cloud to educate them into being better, more enlightened people, and unfortunately, this is how many of the comments that address this issue do sound.
I’ve also seen some great posts by people who put the facts across and don’t try to sound like they’re scoring points or sneering at another person’s ignorance. I imagine these are a lot more effective at changing people’s minds.
As for the stuff about foreigners getting all the houses and jobs and benefits – it’s scary how prevalent this attitude seems to be. Newspapers share a big portion of the blame for it, but I’m praying for a politician to actually stand up and start putting this kind of rubbish to bed. That’s the way to tackle this stuff – not sneering at people for being bigots and racists, but educating them. That’s what I think, anyway.
May 25th, 2010 - 10:30
Are you saying its not true that immigrants are taking jobs that could be done by the brits ?? Come to lincolnshire my friend and see how the area is straining under the influx of east european immigrants working in the fields and pack houses. There are many British people who used to do this work who now cannot get work as the farmers and factory owners will not employ British workers . This is not rumour but fact that i’ve seen with my own eyes. Ask any trucker how he feels about the east europeans pricing british truckers out of the market , again a fact not fiction.
The problem is most of you people live in cities and do proffesional jobs in nice plush offices and dont actually see what is happening in the real world . Immigration is a massive problem where i live.
May 25th, 2010 - 18:07
I’m not saying that immigration isn’t an issue that’s causing problems. Undoubtedly it has an impact, and not always a positive one, but look at what Brit actually said (and what I’m disagreeing with):
“foreigners come over here and get a house given to them and claim benefits, why should the tax payer shell out money for these people to come to out country and sponge off the rest of us? And most of them dont even speak english! so while you sit at your computer without a care in the world you should think about all of the British men who cant get work and who struggle to find a place to live because foreigners are getting all the houses.”
This is an ill-informed rant with no basis in fact. Take it point by point:
1) “foreigners come over here and get a house given to them” According to a 2009 study by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, 1.8% of UK council house tenants are immigrants who have been here for less than five years. 10% of tenants are immigrants who have been here for longer than five years, and 87.8% of council house tenants are UK nationals. According to the study, 64 per cent of people who arrived in the UK within the past five years live in private rented accommodation. (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23716420-new-immigrants-occupy-just-two-per-cent-of-social-housing.do)
2) “foreigners . . . claim benefits, why should the tax payer shell out money for these people to come to out country and sponge off the rest of us?” Non-EU immigrants CANNOT claim benefits until they have been granted Indefinite Leave to Remain. A non EU immigrant must have been legally resident in the UK for five years before they can claim ILR or for two years if they married a UK national. EU immigrants are allowed to claim certain reciprocal benefits if they would be entitled to them in their own country – this also applies to British people living abroad, for example the 500,000 UK nationals currently living in Spain are also entitled to claim benefits through the Spanish system. (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/immigrationlaw/immigrationrules/)
3) “And most of them dont even speak english!” Immigrants are legally obliged to complete an English test before they are granted citizenship. I can’t find any stats for the language skills of immigrants who haven’t become British citizens, but I can at least offer my personal experience (with the limitations that necessarily involves): I spent six months as the receptionist at recruitment agency in a large city with a high immigrant population, and during that time I spoke to a lot of non-UK citizens who were looking for work. I must have seen at least a hundred, and I think there were maybe three or four who couldn’t speak enough English to make themselves understood. Admittedly, this is anecdotal and unscientific, but it’s my experience. (The non-UK citizens didn’t get preferential treatment when it came to getting jobs, either).
I didn’t comment on whether or not immigrants are “taking jobs that could be done by the Brits” in my original post, but since you’ve brought it up – of course an unskilled job that’s done by an immigrant worker could theoretically be filled by a British person, and there is an argument to be made that current levels of immigration are unsustainably high, but Brit and others like him aren’t trying to make that argument – they’re just coming out with a list of provably false, hate-filled statements about sponging immigrants ripping off the British taxpayer.
Can you tell me which farmers and factory owners won’t employ British workers? I’m fairly sure that it’s illegal to refuse to do so purely on the basis of nationality, so if that’s what’s going on then you’ve got a legitimate complaint. It might be true that Eastern European truckers are pricing British truckers out of the market – if immigration is causing legitimate problems for the British workforce then there’s a debate to be had, but it’s got to be had using facts and figures, not prejudiced rubbish pulled from somebody’s Facebook status or from a misleading article in the Sun.
Also: “most of you people live in cities and do proffesional jobs in nice plush offices and dont actually see what is happening in the real world” — You don’t have a clue where I live or what I do, just like you don’t have a clue about the jobs or homes of any of the people who’ve commented on this post. It’s this habit of fact-free assumption, blanket ignorance and stereotyping that feeds the ‘immigrants are taking all the jobs and benefits and houses’ rumours, or the ‘everyone who wears a football shirt is a racist yob’ rubbish. If you want to know what’s happening in “the real world” you’ve got to look at the facts and put things in context, not just rely on assumptions and hearsay.
May 25th, 2010 - 21:25
I wasnt commenting on brits post I was referring to one bit of yours namely – “As for the stuff about foreigners getting all the houses and jobs and benefits – it’s scary how prevalent this attitude seems to be” Even then i only commented on the bit about jobs as I dont really know enough about benefits etc.. to cooment.
I never said id pulled anything from the sun or anyone’s facebook staus this comes from talking to people who live here and have voiced their grievances to me in general conversation .
As for giving names for who is refusing to employ brits There are no signs up saying “No english” however I have spoken to more than one person who has been told that is the reason they arent being employed and have spoken to a gang master who has confirmed this too . Its very naive to say that just because its illegal it doesnt go on , paying below the minimum wage is illegal but it is rife out here . Do you really think they leave a paper trail ?
As for the truckers , well its no secret that they are being priced out of the market and I work for a few truckers and know a few as friends who have conformed this . One friend is even considering a new career because it is so hard for him to make a living now .
I never claimed to know where you live or what you do for a living but I know from my experainces of talking to people from those backrounds that they are unaware any of this is going on . Therefore it is reasonable to assume that that is a fair description of many of the contributers .
Knowing about thereal world is more than just looking at facts and figures which can be manipulated . Try talking to the people actually being affected as I have and see what they tell you .
May 26th, 2010 - 08:19
I’m not saying that because it’s illegal it doesn’t go on – I’m saying if it’s going on you should complain about it to someone because it’s illegal. Go to your MP, go to the police, make a stink – it shouldn’t be happening.
And I stand by my post – any suggestion that foreigners are getting “all the jobs” is bollocks. I got one myself a few months ago. I also worked in an employment agency where I we recruited English people and legal immigrants on the basis of who was most qualified and who was most reliable, not on the basis of whether they were from the UK or not.
This is my experience. It’s different to yours – yours isn’t universal. That’s not to say yours isn’t valid or important, just that it’s not the only one, or the “real” one.
“I know from my experainces of talking to people from those backrounds that they are unaware any of this is going on. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that that is a fair description of many of the contributers.” No it isn’t. Just because people share a view doesn’t mean they share a background.
Facts and figures can be manipulated, yes, but individual experiences can be distorted too, and by their nature they’re individual, not universal. Facts and figures can also be verified, and you can use your brain to work through some dodgy statistics, or do a bit of research to debunk a false fact, but it’s harder to verify an individual on a messageboard saying “so-and-so told me that y happens.” Facts and figures contribute to my knowledge of the world, as do my experiences and those of the people I meet and talk to. You’ve got to take them *all* into account, not stick to your viewpoint in spite of them.
I’m not trying to tell you that you’re wrong, and that immigration is lovely and has no impact on jobs. What I’m saying is that a sweeping statement like “immigrants get all the jobs” is wrong.
May 26th, 2010 - 09:05
PS I’m not sure that we’re necessarily disagreeing on all that much. I’m not trying to tell you that there are no problems with immigration, or that anybody who says it has a negative impact on jobs must be prejudiced. I actually think that this side of the debate needs to be well argued and there needs to be some honesty about how immigration is affecting different parts of the country and different sections of society. I know there are people with different experiences to mine, and I’ve spoken to people who’ve said similar things to you (believe it or not, I don’t spend all my time in a metropolitan wonderland).
I also have no doubt that illegal practices go on and immigrants are exploited and paid less than they ought to be, or kept off the books, or whatever. This is wrong, and ought to be brought to light. (If you saw a robbery going on, would you report it or just complain about it?)
But this argument needs to be put by a) backing up assertions with evidence (not just the anecdotal evidence of what somebody told you, because with the best will in the world, that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny) and b) argued with the recognition that not all jobs / houses / benefits / whatever go to immigrants, because it’s those kind of statements that are blinkered, prejudiced, and divorced from reality, and they take any credibility from the argument.
May 27th, 2010 - 18:54
Noddy – I don’t doubt that farmers are hiring Eastern Europeans because they are willing to work for less than the minimum wage, but it is illegal to pay less than the minumum wage. It’s not the immigrants fault, they want to work, it’s the employer’s. They don’t care where people are from they just want to rip them off. If you want to plame someone blame the fuckers driving round Lincolnshire in expensive cars that they bought off the labour of underpaid people crammed into caravans on their land. They screwing you all – you and the migrant workers.
May 24th, 2010 - 10:00
Hmmm: you say
I’ve never understood that claim. I was born in England, but feel no compulsion to support England (or Great Britain, when we’re talking Olympics) – as you say, we do tend to think that national teams are different from local teams in this way, but I’ve never understood why. If I have a soft spot for, say, Brazil, why shouldn’t I support Brazil (apart from the self-interested aspect of not getting my head kicked in and my house burned down)? Hell, I’m willing to go one further: I don’t see either why membership of the England team should be restricted to the English: if I had the skills and could sell my services to the German team, and if they wanted to buy those services… well, who honestly cares?
Football’s strange.
May 24th, 2010 - 10:50
As someone with direct experience of the UK immigration system, it pains me how little people actually know about it.
That ignorance is no accident as it suits politicians to keep the public stupid and fearful.
If things get worse in this country and the hatred of immigrants moves towards carrying out physical attacks on them, politicians will be the ones with bloody hands.
P.S Thanks for breaking the news about George Lamb.
May 25th, 2010 - 08:32
What news? George Lamb is an important national figure and I must know what edifying activity he has engaged in this time?
May 25th, 2010 - 08:36
He’s quit 6Music!
May 25th, 2010 - 18:02
What’s 6Music?
May 24th, 2010 - 11:08
I went on holiday with my wife to two Muslim countries last year. She was very quickly bored with me saying, ‘England shirt,’ every time I saw one of the locals in an England shirt.
Sure, they were more moderate Muslim countries (Tunisia and Morocco), but we’re supposed to believe these don’t exist. The locals are supposed to want to murder you for wearing an England shirt – except they wear them themselves.
Hey – maybe that’s how they get them!
May 24th, 2010 - 19:09
Comment of the day!
May 24th, 2010 - 11:17
Unfortunately most of the people who join groups like the Facebook group WANT the stories to be true just so they can moan about how PC madness has gone mad and immigrants get everything their way.
On a forum I frequent someone started a thread based on the Facebook page. He was actually condemning the group and gave links and quotes from various sources including the BBC article with the Police writing it of as a rumour and various other sites.
Even though his thread was clearly written condemning the group and filled with reasons why it was BS around 80% of the responses where the usual “Oh my God, these Muslims/Immigrants get away with murder and if we say anything we get called racist”.
I honestly believe some people really want it to be true, so much that when they read an article their brains choose to blank out certain information.
May 25th, 2010 - 11:36
It’s part of this whole retarded mentality of white victimisation that seems to be prevalent amongst white racists. They like to pretend that they’re being persecuted whenever there is anything said or done that may relate to reducing the privileges of being white in comparison to any other ethnic or racial background.
May 24th, 2010 - 11:21
“Brit’s views do intrigue me. They disappoint me rather than appal me. I’m not so much angry as weary when I read this kind of thing.”
You’re being far too kind to ‘Brit.’
He’s an ignorant racist cunt and he can fuck right off.
May 24th, 2010 - 12:43
I’ve been to a few far-flung places, including a short trip through part of Pakistan, and football shirts of English teams seem to be a universally worn garment. I had a Northern Ireland shirt rather than an England one, but when chatting with locals English football was a great ice-breaking subject. They all love the Premiership, and many of the kids dream of being the next Beckham or Ronaldo. I’d wager that arriving in Pakistan with a truckload of new England shirts to give away would make you very popular indeed. Murdered? Unlikely.
Wearing the wrong football shirt in any English town centre on a Saturday night would probably be a faster way to get yourself killed or seriously injured than visiting Pakistan.
May 24th, 2010 - 16:49
I agree it’s unlikely anyone gets hurt in Muslim countries for wearing an England shirt, I think it’s a popular misconception though. But what I find so disappointing is that people who do think that this is the case think that that in turn gives reason for us to discriminate in this country. If you feel you wouldn’t be welcome in other cultures, surely the best way to combat that is to lead by example and not discriminate at home:
“If you went to Pakistan and wore an England shirt you would probably be murdered”
If you disagree with this so vehemently, why not be proud to live in a country where it isn’t the case, instead of pettily deciding that two wrongs make a right.
By the way, I had my A level Citizenship exam today, I made reference to, and explained the concept of “dog-whistle racism” in an essay answer on the mass media
Thanks Anton.
May 24th, 2010 - 17:42
To be fair, there might be an angry Scotsman in Pakistan.
May 24th, 2010 - 18:34
to be honest you should all climb out of your own arses and reallise that not everyone has the same views as you.
When Brit said this, I truly thought it was the beginning of a paragraph where he was going to say he realized how much he agreed with you. I got a bit of whiplash when I realized Brit thought “not everyone has the same views” philosophy was the same thing as “those foreigners don’t like the same things I do, and that’s wrong.”
It’s really rather disconcerting, to be honest, that someone can say something so profound as “not everyone has the same views” and yet have no damn clue what it means. Brit has the words, but he doesn’t have the knowledge. He knows it’s something other people say, but he doesn’t know how to apply it except in his own slightly twisted, already-biased mind. There’s something so fundamentally depressing about that. It makes me sad.
May 25th, 2010 - 10:26
I read that statement as a response to the sneeriness shown in some of the comments about people who want to wear their team’s shirt and support football – which is fair enough, I think. It’s the third paragraph, when he starts coming out with all the right-wing talking points, that he ignores his own advice and characterises immigrants as greedy spongers who also (paradoxically) take all the jobs.
The thing that bugs me is that you can’t argue properly with someone if they don’t have the facts right, because you don’t have any common ground to tussle over. If Brit, or whoever, wanted to argue that immigration is bad and we shouldn’t have it, then he’s perfectly entitled to that view – as long as he’s got his facts straight, and he’s come to that conclusion based on the evidence and not on a load of fear-mongering rubbish. His basic point is right – not everybody has the same views and we should be prepared to be challenged on what we think and have to argue our points, not just assume that we’re right and anybody who thinks differently must be wrong. So Brit clearly thinks that arguments in favour of immigration don’t take into account the impact it has on certain sections of the population – which would be fine as a point to debate, except that his opinions seem to be based on a lot of misinformation and fear.
But if it makes you feel any better, I think he had a splinter of a good point, before he started going on about all the immigrants being spongers
May 24th, 2010 - 19:26
After even the briefest of trawls through the delights of t’interwebs it seems to be a very firmly held belief by a lot of people that if you (rightly) see this story as a load of hoary old hogwash then you are, by default a Communist. If anyone can enlighten me as to what the connection is there I’d love to know…
May 24th, 2010 - 19:42
My brother went to Pakistan for the last two summers and (quietly) supported England in the cricket and hasn’t been murdered. Got into arguments that went on all night, sure. And that’s not as much fun as it sounds in teetotal neighbourhoods. And he wasn’t wearing an England shirt. But still.
Also his girlfriend is called Britt, but she’s from the Netherlands and knows how to type, so it’s probably not her.
October 23rd, 2010 - 09:06
Long time viewer / 1st time poster. Really enjoying reading the blog, keep up the excellent work. Will most definitely start posting more oftenin the future.